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Anywhere I Can Get Discontinued Acrylics?
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Message
Posted
Hi All,
My first post so I hope i'm doing this ok.
Does anybody have an idea where I can get discontinued acrylic paints. There are a few i'm after by different brands but two in particular.
Art Creation Essentials Sap Green 623. A wonderful colour although the consistency is poor. I started a series of paintings using this colour and really need it out of the tube as I have another 34 to complete!! This brand is made by Royal Talens but I was in correspondance with their technical advisor Justyna in the Netherlands and she informed me they stopped manufacturing this paint 10 years ago. Indeed the Art Creation Essentials imprint was superceded by the Art Creations line. They manufacture a Sap Green 623 but for this newer line they changed the recipe of this paint and it looks entirely different and not particularly nice. The Art Creation Essentials paint weren't particularly expensive at €2.78 for 75ml albeit bought 9 years ago and as mentioned the quality and consistency isn't great but the colour is beautiful. The new line Sap Green 623 I bought 2 weeks ago and again is cheap at €3.10 but it just isn't the same. Can anyone help please? Photos of the paint tube both front and reverse are attached.
Minea Lila. This was purchased for the princely sum of €1 from Kodi in Germany in 2021. Kodi say they don't do this anymore. It's a brilliant purple colour and sticks to the canvas wonderfully. Why it is only €1 I haven't a clue. Any ideas please are welcomed where I can get this?
The green is the most important of the two paints.
Thank You!
Bourne
Richard Bourne
Posted
It's extremely annoying when a favourite pigment is discontinued - it will be very difficult to replicate this colour because the pigment number doesn't seem to be given; I'll look up PG 623, but I'm not all sure that's the correct pigment identification number. It was made in China; might have been withdrawn for many reasons, not that this is in any way helpful to you now. Sap Green varies hugely from maker to maker - I rather like the Winsor & Newton one, in acrylic - though it can rather too easily take over a painting, it works well mixed with yellow (and pretty horribly mixed with white alone). I presume Royal Talens couldn't tell you what the P number was - and might not be in any hurry to help you find it if they don't offer it. I don't know anything about Kodi, and have no clue at all what the identifying number might be on your Minea Lila, having never heard of that either.
Many companies make Sap Green - Liquitex, Golden, W & N, Daler Rowney, Talens, and it looks to me as if you're going to have to try the lot before you find the variety you want, and might not find it even then.
I've looked through the pigment databases, and can't find a PG 623 - if there is a PG + Number anywhere on either of your tubes (the purple one will be PV something, if it's there at all) let us know, and we might be able to help. Without seeing the actual colour in a swatch, I couldn't even tell you how you might be able to mix it yourself, but even if I could, it would only be an approximation to the tube colour.
Posted
PS - Sap Greens today are made with arylide, naphthol or pthalocyanine pigments, as opposed to the buckthorn from which it was once made. In theory, you should be able to mix it from an arylide yellow, plus Pthalo Green; or even from Terre Verte plus a yellow - but theory's all very well, it doesn't always work out in practice. Sorry to be gloomy, but I don't think I can find an answer here - others may be able to help: I realize you don't want to waste what little paint you've got left, but it might help to brush out a little on your palette so we could have a look at it.
Posted
https://www.theworks.co.uk/p/acrylic-paint/sap-green-acrylic-paint-200ml/5052089216617.html?CAWELAID=720011340002627085&gclid=CjwKCAjw4ayUBhA4EiwATWyBrgoEZJHn6vZgX-zbxvg6TEX8UTsun0Z6-bSH581-ax05hsfX1CFCFRoCZX0QAvD_BwE
This from The Works: this may be the less attractive Sap Green you really don't want, but it looks the same on-screen. It's extremely cheap - as in EXTREMELY, and I'm not at all sure I'd trust it for a real art project. But still; there it is, and the only one of its kind I've found so far.
Posted
Hi Robert,
Wow, thank you so much for your quick and excellent replies.
Usually I stick with Amsterdam, Windsor and Newton and Rembrandt so these two are unbelievably good for such ridiculously cheap brands.
The Royal Talens helpful technical advisor Justyna Pennards informed me as follows:
'I still hope that you can find a solution mixing different colours yellow and phtalo green. As there is a colour shift in acrylics (the colours become a little bit darker after drying), I recommend mixing a bigger quantity of paint and storing it in a jar that you can close to prevent from drying out. Then you have identical paint on all your 40 paintings. I have no access anymore to the original recipes. Therefore I cannot name the percentages. But it would not work anyway with the paint, because paint contains much more ingredients, not only the pigments, and the percentages in paint would not correspond to the percentages in pigment.
As mentioned: lemon, ochre and phtalo green should do the trick. Maybe you even can mix a much better colour?'.
I'll be honest Robert, i've never mixed my own paint. Could you recommend any particular places I can get these paint pigments from. Should I use liquid or powder form? Any other help much appreciated.
Thank you for both your time and help.
Bourne
Posted
Robert is an expert on colour, acrylic is his, or one of his specialties, I was certain he’d have some good info for you.
I would use liquid for the best results. I feel fairly certain that I could get pretty damn close to any green, sap green included, the combinations given above and by Robert should see you achieve that!
Have a go, it’s not difficult, and any slight variation will almost certainly not be noticed by anyone else but you!
Good luck…
Posted
Yes, agreed. Go on, try mixing - so many possible ways in which you could achieve a satisfactory result, but I say again = if you could paint out a colour swatch for us, we might be better able to analyse it.
Mixing from powdered pigment would be immensely labour-intensive: you could be here for months trying to achieve it! The trouble is that I don't really have a clue what your favourite Sap Green consisted of, because I can't see it. Can you squeeze a bit out - examine it - determine whether it tends more to yellow, or more to blue? Can you experiment with Hookers Green, which was specifically designed to be a good base to mix with other colours (but is hideous on its own)? Add yellow - burnt sienna - white plus yellow - you can take it in all sorts of directions. Or take (if you're using oil) viridian; and if acrylic, pthalo Green - you won't get genuine Viridian in acrylic, it's not compatible with the resins: Sap Green is generally a subdued green, normally tending to yellow - but it does vary so hugely between makers that I'm really just stabbing in the dark trying to find what might work.
I've got to say that I think you'll never get a precise colour match between any tube paint and any colour you can mix yourself - but Alan and I, more Alan than me!, could make a pretty good attempt at matching any colour you throw at us: but if we can't tell what that colour is, and all we can see is the printed sleeve on your tube - which is nearer to a dulled Cadmium green than anything else, which I'm sure is not the colour within - we have both paint and brushes tied behind our backs.
Finally, yes you could mix the colour yourself from powdered pigment and resin (it'd be hard work) IF you knew what the pigment number was, and if that paint were still available, which it might not be. Trouble is, you don't know, because that information isn't on the tube.
I think this would be somewhat easier with oil paint - eg, I might go for Terre Verte, a touch of Viridian, and a touch of Indian Yellow - but in acrylic? Much, much more difficult - because the base colour that makers called Sap Green is wholly, entirely, completely different.
Posted
GOOD art supply companies do list the component parts of pigments - I would suggest having a look at Liquitex, and Golden acrylics. And I see you're not used to colour mixing, but I promise you that if you can mix colours, a new world of possibilities awaits you - you don't want to be limited or dictated to by the range of colours available in the tube - mixing them is a whole new world; and really, that's what they're for. Winsor and Newton has an enormous range of colours in the tube - you certainly could paint a whole picture using the pure colour (if you'd bought all of them) - but the trouble that then arises is: what do you do if a colour you've come to rely on is withdrawn? Well, to coin a phrase - you're buggered, aren't you?
Mixing is good - even necessary. It may be possible to get very near to the colour you've lost, but - if one component of that colour is no longer available for whatever reason, an exact match won't be possible.
Posted
I paint mainly using oils, quality brands when possible, but I rarely, if ever, use paint straight from the tube.
It’s not how we were taught at college, mixing and colour theory and it’s definitely beneficial to be able to mix your own colours.
I personally would never use any green whatsoever straight from the tube. I don’t have many greens, I tend to go more for the earth colours on my palette, but that’s my style of subject.
It’s a process that for me, and I’m sure for Robert also that happens instinctively when we paint, diving in and out of different colours from the palette. It’s a very big part of the fun of painting!
Edited
by Alan Bickley
Posted
Colour perception, always interesting. I looked at the RoyalTalens.com website, they have 5 series of Acrylic.
The Art Creation series gives 623 as: PG7/PY42
The Rembrandt series (More expensive?) - this shows Sap Green 623 as: "...formulated with pigment(s) PG7/PY42/PR101, and has a lightfastness rating of +++ (100+ years under museum conditions)."
Posted
Indeed so: unfortunately none of that helps if you don't know the composition of the -paint you most value - which is one of many reasons why I'd never put all my trust, faith and interest in one particular brand of paint, particularly if I didn't know the Pigment Number.
PG7/PY42/PR101, though - that's very interesting: I'll have a look for that tomorrow - you should be able to mix this - but I doubt we'd ever get precisely the same colour as that in the tube. Actually, this is too interesting - time for bed, but must check tonight! PG7 is Pthalo Green; PY42, Yellow Iron Oxide; PR 101, Transparent Red Oxide. Hmmm. Pthalo Green is easy to find - the other two, not so much. Basically, this is a Pthalo Green plus an Oxide Orange - now find your Oxide Orange, and that's where your troubles start. Pthalo Green plus Burnt Sienna, perhaps, and a Yellow Iron Oxide - umph. What would qualify as a Yellow Iron Oxide in currently available paints?
I'm so tired tonight I'm falling off my chair, but I'll have a good look at the possibilities tomorrow, while still saying - an exact match is going to be VERY hard to achieve - because it's all a matter of balance in the mixing. And of course this mix is for the present Sap Green colour, which isn't the same as that sought by Richard Bourne.
Posted
Hi Everyone,
What an incredibly helpful bunch you guys are - thank you so much!
Here is a little more information from Justyna Pennards the Technical Advisor at Royal Talens.
''As you already know the brand Art Creation Essentials has been changed to Talens Art Creation. This step led also to changes in recipes of some colours.
The “sap green 623” was made from pigments PY42 (yellow ochre), PY3 (lemon yellow) and PG7 (phthalo green). Now the pigment PY3 has been changed to PY74, which apparently leads to another shade of green.
Our recipes change from time to time when better pigments are available. We always search for ways to improve the quality of the paint.''
Above is the green Sap Green 623 I adore.
Alan, i'm working solely currently, in Acrylics and use the more expensive ranges usually so both the Art Creation Essentials Green and the Minea Lilac Purple are both rarities for me.
Thanks,
Bourne
Above is the green Sap Green 623 I adore.
Alan, i'm working solely currently, in Acrylics and use the more expensive ranges usually so both the Art Creation Essentials Green and the Minea Lilac Purple are both rarities for me.
Thanks,
Bourne