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Pen and ink - or pens and inks
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Message
Posted
I have been playing.
Over many years, I've used dip pens and Indian ink, Chinese ink, brushes capable of standing up to these quite heavy inks without suffering too much.
Recently, probably inspired by a Rotring Artpen given to me by Sylvia Evans, I've been experimenting rather happily with fountain pens, and a brush pen. I've used the cartridges that came with the pens (Hongdian - a fude pen - Sailor - one a fude pen, one a brush pen. A fude pen, for those who don't know - as I quite recently didn't - is a fountain pain with an upturned nib: the end of the nib is curved upwards. I bought the Hondian (Chinese) and the Sailor (Japanese) to see how they'd compare.
Now then - I discovered that while you can't use Indian ink in any kind of fountain pen, because it'll clog them completely, you can use what to me is a new product: Carbon black ink. The cartridge inks are water soluble; carbon black ink is not - it resists water, like Indian ink. You have to wash the pens out occasionally, but otherwise it doesn't ruin them. I've used carbon black in one of these pens, and would be quite happy, having done quite a few drawings, to use it in all of them. Except - dare I use it in the brush pen, with its filament tip?
After that lengthy introduction therefore - I'm asking: is there anyone on the forum who is using carbon black ink, and if so - do they think I could get away with using it in a brush pen?
(I know I could keep on using dip pens and brushes, with soluble and non-soluble inks: but there's much to be said for both the convenience, and variety of line, of fountain pens.)
Posted
Yes Robert, I’m using carbon black ink! But I don’t have enough knowledge about refillable brush pens to offer an opinion, in fact I’m not a great lover of brush pens in general.
They are useful for plein air sketching though, and I do have a limited selection at my disposal - a small range of warm and cool greys mainly, plus a couple of earth colours.
I’m using carbon black ink along with a range of other inks, in my fairly newly acquired Ackerman Classic and Manga G Pump pens, I’ve bought two - (available from the States, I can give more details if anyone is interested)… I can use any ink in these, including Indian without fear of it blocking up - unbelievable almost, but true!
I’ve tried a fude pen and hated it, I won’t get into the details why, but bent nibs just aren’t for me… a guy on the gallery does use one rather well though, producing some decent sketches!
Edited
by Alan Bickley
Posted
Interesting. I have no knowledge of carbon black ink. I've looked it up and found it confusing...easily done with me. There's talk of etching ink, acrylic carbon black etc etc. I'd assumed this would be like indian ink, and could be used with a dip-pen. Can you explain, and where did you get it? I looked at Jackson's and found it confusing.
Alan, those pens you referred to...are the nibs flexible, as with a dip pen?
My recent return to dip-pens has left me needing to order more ink. Carbon black sounds intriguing, but perhaps I'd better stick to the tried and tested.
Posted
Lew, here we go with a few answers:
Platinum carbon ink from Amazon, it’s a very black waterproof ink that dries with a matte finish! Good for fude pens as it doesn’t clog so easily as say Indian ink!
Great for dip pens of course, but it’s £20 a bottle, and in fairness, if it’s just for a dip pen, then Indian ink is probably equally as good.
The Ackerman Pump pens accommodate a range of nibs, and yes, they’re flexible, some more than others.
I like some nibs better than others, but I think I know exactly what nibs would suit your style!
I’ll come back to you shortly with more information.
The Ackerman pens don’t clog! A bold statement from the company, but in the main, a true statement! They have a very simple ‘feed’ design, and you can use any ink… I’m delighted with it, I’m getting a dip pen effect, but without the dipping… continuity of line therefore is the obvious advantage, and the more flexible nibs gives me the all important variation of line thickness in a single stroke, should I want that.
You can’t buy them in the uk, so there’s postage to pay from the States, I think they work out at £50 or so all in…but definitely one of my better buys, I’ve got two of them in fact, the Classic and the Manga G - one for each hand!
I’ll be back…
Posted
Right then Lew, and anyone else who might be interested - my preferred nib is the Manga G Zebra, very flexible, but others include Brause Rose, Bandzug and a sketching nib which I like, but it isn’t flexible.
I’ve bought a selection from them to try out. As one would of course!
Fiona has an Ackerman pen also, she saw my Rembrandt style drawings and was reasonably impressed… with the pen, not my drawings!
She may join in the conversation later, I’ll have a word.
Go to the Ackerman website for more information, and I’m always around should you need any more information.
I don’t know if these nibs will fit in a dip pen, they probably would…
Posted
I have visited the Ackerman inks website - the price, with carriage, is a little intimidating, but then cheap pens can be hideous to use, and have a nasty habit of falling to bits.
One question I CAN answer - yes, Carbon black ink is fine to use with dip pens; I would prefer to use my lovely, syryupy Kandahar, though. For the moment, I won't use carbon black in my brush pen: I may get another, so if it fails at least I'll have one that works.
Alan on brush pens - on their own, I think they have very little to offer: they're not as sensitive as, e.g., a Chinese or Japanese brush. They're fun to play with, but then, so is plasticine - an odd comparison, I know; but I struggle to regard either as a serious art material. I like mine, however, because I use it differently - rarely to lay a drawing in first, but to strengthen a drawing in waterproof ink, by adding the brush pen and then laying washes - just by diluting the brush pen ink. Harder to explain than to do - I'll have a crack at such a drawing today, post it, and you can see what I mean.
I don't say it'll be good, mind. I do have a couple of drawings like that already, but they're a bit on the small side.
Still hoping someone can reassure/worry me about using carbon black in brush pens, in the meantime.
Posted
Oh, unanswered question - Lew asks where I got the ink; well - as always - it's available on Amazon**, but I got mine from Cult Pens.
** - Amazon: it seems that if you type almost anything into Google, up will pop Amazon claiming they can get it for you; I haven't tried this, mind, but if you typed "Heinrich Himmler", I bet you'd get "Heinrich Himmler in stock at Amazon, buy now!" or words to that effect. What a prospect, eh - your very own Himmler: you could stick pins in him...
Posted
A bit expensive perhaps Robert, but well worth it in my opinion!
I’ve been searching around for the ideal pen for years… I’ve tried everything almost - this has everything I’ve ever wanted in a drawing pen!
It’s the simplicity of them that appeals to me, no fancy feeders to clog up, and you simply pull out the nib and feeder (takes a second) to clean it as and when you want!
Takes just a second to change the nib as well…
I’ve never liked the Rotring Art drawing pen, always clogging up and nibs that aren’t flexible enough for my style of sketching… but they’re popular!
Edited
by Alan Bickley
Posted
Thanks for all that, folks. It got me hooked even though I'm trying to avoid the lastest art gizmos and fads, but this is pen and ink!! Your description, Alan....a pen with the usage mannerisms of a dip pen without all the dipping, sounds like the perfect combination to me. I like disposable pens, and will still occasionally use them, but the trad dip-pen nib is the thoroughbred drawing implement.
I've looked up the Ackerman site. The classic pump pen appeals, and it comes with the 3 nibs you recommended. Having looked at the nibs they sell, they look fairly trad to me, quite possibly some of the nibs I have would fit the pump pen. That's not a big point, it's not the nibs that are especially costly. I'll now follow my usual buying routine...dither about it for a while, and then buy one.
I found the carbon ink. Around the £20 mark as you said, Alan. Currently I'm using Jackson's own brand indian ink. £9 for a 300ml bottle, as opposed to £20 for 60ml of carbon ink.
I'll stick with that. It's a dense rich black, doesn't take too long to dry, but it does have some shine on it, mostly when I use a brush to block in solid blacks. I don't find it intrusive.
Thanks again for the info.
Posted
At the moment I'm using a TWSBI extra fine eco pen using carbon black ink. The smoothest pen I've used, the ink has been in the pen for a while
and after reading this thread I used it and the ink flowed without any trouble. It is a bit of a faff to put together, when new, but worth the effort. Regarding dip pens my preference is Speedball. I like the length of the nib holder and quality and variety of the nibs within each set, for both drawing and calligraphy.
Posted
I'll be looking those up with a view to purchase - I have a lot of dip pens, and have had them for 50 years; the great thing about them is that they're almost immortal: the steel nibbed ones, that is; and not using a Steadman technique, guaranteed to twist the tines.
Mapping pens last no time at all, but are fun to use. Vast amounts of information on pen drawing on YouTube, to the extent I've actually (a big thing for me!) decided to PAY for it, to get rid of the adverts: but I've not yet found the answer to my original question. I'm not so sure it matters, though - if I want permanent ink for use with a brush, I can always use it on a proper brush, e.g. Chinese wolf hair, I don't otherwise much care for.
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