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When is art, art?
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Message
Posted
Thank you Peter, Robert and Sandra for your positive encouragement. Regrettably this topic didn't go the way I'd intended and that is my fault for not putting my question across properly. What I was really trying to answer was the question in the title, "When is art, art?". As an example, take this drawing of a lifeboat that I did. Is it art? If so, then is the original photograph also art? I accept there has been some technical skills involved in producing the drawing, but where is the art? 
Posted
John this forum has a life of its own and tends to go of at tangents.... if you copied that photograph verbatim I would call you a copyist . Why not post the photograph. Originally I said and others also said we use photographs for reference and inspire. Your "copy" is very clever and I see where you are coming from. But not creative.
Incidentally beware copyright.
Edited
by Sylvia Evans
Posted
John = YES, yes, and did I say - YES.
It's art. What puzzles me is why you might think it isn't?
Having read Sylvia's now - I understand what she means if you've just copied the photograph in, in this case, graphite? Even so, I think you've done a fantastic job. Technically, you've not breached copyright either,so long as you say - should you publish it - "based on a photograph by", or something similar. You could always ask the photographer, if you wanted to - many of them would be highly delighted that you wanted to intrepret the image, though it's true that not all of them would. It's really very hard to copyright a view, though! I seriously doubt that you'd be in any trouble at all by doing so; slavisly copying - yes, that could get you into trouble. But defences to such claims are generally quite easy to achieve, unless you been extremely literal.
That's not really the issue here though, is it? You think you're insufficiently original; that has nothing to do with fears about "copying", and the answer to it is to take your sketchbook, and draw whatever comes to mind: you, your dog. your house, your breakfast, the postman - you'll have to be quick - anything. That's all "creative", and you just need to go and do it. Go on!
Forget this 'I'm not original or inventive' stuff - you don't have to be; just go out and draw what you see, and leave your fears about your lack of inventinvess at home where they belong.
Get yourself a copy of Adebanji's Addictive Sketcher, and let yourself go.
Edited
by Robert Jones, NAPA
Posted
PS - John; yes. Your version is art. I haven't seen the original photograph, that's true. But you're not copying meticulously every single wave and ripple here, are you? If you are, I wouldn't think it mattered, but if you were - well, don't; vary it a bit; make it yours!
Many years ago, I had a copy of a painting called Schwere See - and I wish I had it now, because it was quite valuable, but never mind! It was a photographic representation - an early print of a 19th century painting. There are countless copies of that painting on offer today; none of them equal to the original, and many of them blatant ripoffs: no one, so far as I know, has been prosecuted for them, though.
Posted
Your thoughts, John, remind me of discussions on my English Lit courses. We had to approach our critiques on the message or plot, or on the "aesthetics" of a piece. I read the latter as the poet's/author's art. On their use of language and the way they put it together. To me the same can be said of drawing or painting works.
TS Eliot said ‘Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.’
Or...there's not a lot new under the sun.
Posted
Gosh, so many comments to respond to ... thank you. And Sylvia, I have an art forum of my own on my web site so I understand just how they take on a life of their own sometimes. It's the nature of the beast.
Firstly, Sylvia and Robert, with regards to the original photograph and copyright. I'm posting the photograph to show you that I am indeed attempting to copy verbatim. As will be seen in my description of the drawing in the gallery, I have the permission of the photographer to use his photo for this purpose and I would never dream of copying a picture without asking first.
Secondly, Robert, yes, I do think I'm insufficiently original but I have no fears about copying. I do use my sketchbook (though not as often as I should) and the work in that is much more 'art' than my more serious work.
Tanja, thank you for your kind comment about my 'art'. To answer your question, my criteria for art is for it to be the creation of a new image. Better or worse than the original is irrelevant as long as it creates a new image born from the imagination of the artist. My "Graphite" gallery contains many examples of pictures copied slavishly, without deviation from the original, and these are the pictures I do not consider to be Art.
Norrette, I like what you've written about TS Eliot and "something different" hits the nail on the head for me.
In my posts I have given the impression I am not happy with my work. I lack confidence (as many of us do) and I have no imagination, but I get by and enjoy what I do. My question isn't about ME and what I create, but about art.
Edited
by John Johnston