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Can you help identify this 15c oil painting?
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Posted
Other strange things about the painting are the pillars - I have travelled widely, but do not recall seeing any pillars like these. So I've googled a few searches relate pillars and found some paintings in a similar style, attributed to Antwerp Mannerism style. The single perspective point is used and all kind of strange pillars. Also some them seem to be in a long portrait format, as in the painting in question. However, the biblical subjects are painted in costumes appropriate to the age in which they were painted i.e. Early 16th Century. So the lady could be the Virgin Mary, and the men on the left, could be the three wise men and the central "King" figure, could be Joseph! If the painting was created, by anyone from this genre, then there there would be no point in looking for any likeness with people with whom we can find visual records!
Therefore this could be three wise men saying "Who's the daddy", and one saying "you're the daddy", pointing at Joseph. Mary, is feeling her pregnant belly. In the background (left window), the little man I thought was the devil, is Herod.
the paintings below are by unknown artists, who were part of the Antwerp Mannerism movement. The paintings are in Chicago Institute of Art.
Edited
by Splosh
Posted
Thanks for all your comments so far.
Just to let you know, a selection of all comments to date are now up on the website: www.oldmasterdetective.com
Posted
I doubt that these questions can be answered with certainty. There were so many painters in the St Luke Guild of Painters of Antwerp, that it would be difficult to identify one, especially as they mostly did not sign their paintings. This one was probably done by apprentices anyway.
I think the painting is predominantly religious, rather than historical or political, but we cannot view it as a 16th Centurian would. We simply do not have their mindsets.We have a lot more knowledge and understanding than the original viewers had and we cannot unknow our knowledge. Similarly we are not obsessed with the Magi as this group of painters were.
Experts may be able to make an educated guess about the meaning of the painting or even the painter, but they cannot be sure.
Finding the history of the painting could be even more difficult as we cannot describe it with certainty and so may not recognise any historical description. It could have been one of those paintings that was traded in the market outside Antwerp Cathedral in the 16th Century and not commissioned. If this was the case then there would have been no original documentation of the sale. Still it is an interesting puzzle and I have learnt a lot about Antwerp Mannerism on the way. I hope to learn more when Antwerp Museum reopens sometime this year.
Posted
Dear Landscapeart
I can assure you this is not a scam. I am the webmaster promoting the website on behalf of a client. He was offered £25,000 to sell the painting but does not want to sell it without knowing the mysteries surrounding it... his last wish if you were.
I am sorry to re-post but I was hoping some people who missed the discussion the first time round could see it.
If anyone is able to help me by recommending any other forums / discussions / groups / people I could post the website too I would be extremely grateful!
Many thanks
Posted
The only other place I can think of is Wet Canvas - but a) I think you've tried that already, and b) I doubt if you'd get very far, for several different reasons it might be tactless to pursue....
I assume you've tried historical forums as well? If you can find a specialist in the era - and one that crosses national boundaries - there may be something in the painting that gives a clue (I still favour the Habsburg connection - it's that chin...). Failing that, the art dealer who now and then appears on the BBC's Antiques Roadshow might have an idea, or would certainly know where to go to find someone who did have an idea. I have of course forgotten his name .... Philip something, I think!
While I think you've probably exhausted our collective expertise, new members do join this site all the time - perhaps among them is a keen student of the Tudor period who will take a look, and say "Tsk! Why, it's obvious...!" and then claim the cash. So probably persistence is worth it. I just wish I'd paid more attention at school.