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Posted
Hi,I would like to ask the advice of the forum on a few things.I am a water colourist and want to try my hand at oils.I did consider Acrylics but I think that even if I became instantly successful paining in them,I'd still be thinking "what about oils" so straight to them I suppose. I am sort of over whelmed with all the choices and technicalities of painting in oils and even the whole issue of drying time has me a tad wary.I intend to use the same pigments as I have on my watercolour palette, Ultra,Cobalt,Ththalo Blue,maybe an Indian Yellow or Cadium,then Madder Brown,Perm Alizarin Crimson and then the lovely earths of Raw and Burnt Sienna,Burnt Umber and maybe Raw Umber which I use with Ththalo to make a dark green.Loads of Titanium White.So that is that sort of sorted.I gather from another post of Robert's that hog hair from Rosemary are good brushes and I am thinking some Filberts, a Bright or two, probably a pointed one.I already have a couple of riggers and synthetic flats.Seeing I will hardly be painting in 1/4 sheet as in watercolour but smaller can anyone recommend brush sizes or are they more or less the same as watercolours size wise and usage? I don't want to use solvents so I gather stuff like Zest It is the way to go.
After that the big issue is what to paint on and again I am truly lost.Some say the canvas on timber frame might be too supple for a beginner and recommend the canvas boards which I presume are the ones I have seen with the canvas wrapped around a board. I see that they come primed, do they need a lesson then? Or do I simply mix up something like Burnt Sienna and white and put it on?What would be the ideal size to begin with? I shop in Jacksons so any links would be deeply appreciated !
After using a white surface for mixing watercolours,I don't understand how mixing on a grey palette works but have seen these palettes on Jacksons so will probably get one.
Is there anything else I might need to get started?I live outside UK so when ordering , so I sort of have to have a plan when ordering on the postage gets out of control.
Although I am not intending to copy anyone I am quite taken by Stephen Higton's paintings,so could anyone tell me what style is that considered and how are those brush marks made? Is that style impressionist?
And finally, and thank you for your patience, how long does the average painting take to be finished.I understand there are variables but for a painting done in the style of the artist Stephen Higton which to my eye is not too fluid and not too impasto?
Kind regards
Larry
Posted
Just a few issues then! I'm not into long replies but briefly I would suggest a limited palette along the lines you state, my preference would be 3 of each primary plus Burnt Sienna, Titanium White and Ivory Black. With the primaries have a transparent a mid colour and a bright so, for instance for the yellows may be Raw Sienna, Yellow Ochre and Cadmium Yellow, You can mix any colour you want from this palette and achieve tint or shade using the white or black. The downside to using Titanium White is that, although it is the brightest white and strong in mixes, it takes time to dry and gives a chalky finish to mixes, a Flake White Hue might be an alternative or Zinc White, but the latter can cause cracking when dry. Play about with the colours and medium to understand the transparencies and glazing properties of each and the mixes, for a short introduction there are a number of decent demonstrations on YouTube, try Richard Robinson.
Using a mid grey palette is useful for judging the tone of your mixes. Essential in much of composition. Remember that in any painting tone does most of the work and colour gets most of the credit but you will know that from your watercolour work, so getting the tones right is essential and judging against a mid grey palette that much easier.
Canvas covered boards are good but can be hard on brushes as can MDF used with a gesso primer but I use them regularly, Framed canvases are the classic choice but as you say they are maybe not the best for learning and experimenting. I prepare Canvas covered boards. and canvases, with either gesso mixed with acrylic burnt sienna/raw sienna or a mix with Ulramarine if I want a neutral base, or white acrylic primer instead of the gesso. I add calcite (powered chalk) to the mix to give a 'short' ground (i.e. a base that will absorb and dry paint a little faster).
Hog brushes from Rosemary & Co are excellent as are the synthetic mongoose brushes they produce but don't go mad on a huge range of brushes when starting, get a couple of filberts and flats, a couple of rounds and a rigger and get going.
The only thing you need to get started is enthusiasm and a few basic materials as discussed. My advice would be not to rush into buying lots of stuff until you get going when you will quickly learn what suits your style and genre and you can build up as you progress.
I painted watercolour for years but have never regretted going on to oils and now do little watercolour painting. Not only are oils more forgiving they can produce great effects (as of course can watercolour) but somehow I find oil more satisfying. People have written books and produced DVDs on the subjects you raise but don't be discouraged, once you get started you will wonder why you waited so long.
Good luck!
Posted
Well now - first of all, Stub gives good advice. If you feel like reading a longer reply than I'm going to give here, I can without either excessive cupidity, because it's cheap, or excess braggatry, because I know it's been helpful to many, recommend my e-book Oil Paint Basics on the Amazon Kindle Store.
Stephen Higton, whose work I follow too, uses Griffin Alkyd paints - a form of oil, but much quicker drying than conventional oils. They can be used as underpainting for oils as well, but shouldn't be used over them. I won't repeat Stub's advice on brushes and colours; (I'd opt for Permanent Alizarin Crimson, though, or Permanent Rose, rather than Rose Madder Genuine or Alizarin Crimson despite their respective beauty and usefulness, because in certain circumstances they fade). As for surfaces - I can recommend Ampersand panels, available from Jackson's, as one of the best; or canvas board. Many people use stretched canvas - it's not really the best surface for oil in the long run, because of its sensitivity to environmental factors: but there are of course thousands of oil paintings on canvas that have survived for centuries, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. Avoid Zinc White in the lower layers of a painting, it can promote cracking and delamination, and some would say avoid it entirely. Unfortunately, it's found in some brands of Titanium White, and in just about all brands of Flake White Hue: it's a bit of a problem, because Stub's right that Titanium White can produce a chalky effect; still, thousands, again, use it - and in many ways it's a very good pigment. I can't say "use it carefully", because what on earth would that mean? But if you can, avoid using it on its own - tint it with something, even very slightly; anything to counteract the bright, staring white. Jackson's make two grades of their own oil paint: one of the Titaniums they make is Zinc-free - it's a good paint that I recommend.
You say you want to avoid solvents, which I quite understand, and presumably you'll also want to avoid lead whites, like genuine Flake, or Cremnitz; as these are very hard to get hold of (although I just about manage) this may be just as well. If you want a quick-drying white, or quicker than oil whites, you could try Alkyd Titanium - same stuff, but in an alkyd resin: again, don't paint it over regular oils.
Zest-it..... I've never used it; there are low-odour thinners from Daler Rowney, Sansodor (basically the same thing) from Winsor and Newton. They're not hazard-free, but they're not as bad as genuine Turpentine - although it's a useful product, because its resiny base is good for oil paint - or white spirit (which I still use for cleaning up, never for painting, but am going to have to stop because it is making me feel ill, especially after I had a chest infection earlier this year). There have been questions about Zest-it, but I think the basis of them is that it's not been around long enough for an authoritative opinion to be formed as to its use; the same applies to water-miscible oils. You might try "bodied oil", stand oil or sun-thickened Linseed; it does require a bit of letting down with some sort of solvent, or is too thick for fine detail. And some swear by Walnut Oil. Sticking my tortoise-like neck out, I doubt you'll come to grief using Zest-it, but as with any medium, keep it to the bare minimum: the less, generally speaking, the better. You could also try Winsor and Newton's or Daler-Rowney's ready-made mediums - Liquin, or the imaginatively-titled Oil Painting Medium. They will contain solvent - Liquin contains butanone oxime, which I take to be a solvent - but not enough to be a hazard provided you have enough ventilation: just having a window open is adequate. Please avoid anything from the Bob Ross stable of mediums - if you're serious about your oil painting, these are not for you.
Is that any good to be going on with? Ask away if not, and I'm always happy to respond to emails or PMs on this subject, a) because it interests me, and b) because I'll have to revise and update my e-book eventually, and it helps to hear what problems or successes people are having.
Posted
Wow ! Brilliant.Thank you Peter and Robert. And thank you Peter of the mention of Richard Robinson,I will certainly look him up.I'd like to ask a few questions if I may?
I didn't realise there was an issue with flaking and cracking with the white because one of things I love about looking at oils is use of white mixed into colour, and so wouldn't see myself using it neat except maybe for the odd white cap on the sea or something small.I am sure that is okay with Titanium.I will look up the one you recommend Robert.
Robert I did send you an email but I think it must have been dumped in the spam and I went to buy your book but am not up to speed with having a Kindle,losing ground there unfortunately !!
Robert,is the Walnut used as a thinner?I will look up the options on the solvent free that you recommend but I think I might be in trouble with some of the mediums(or should that be media?) as Jacksons won't deliver a lot of them unless it's by road so I might have to source some here in Ireland.When you say the Linseed needs 'letting down' do you mean thinning and would that have to be done with some thing like a white spirits?
I was looking up the Ampersand panels....there seems to be a wide variety from unprimed basswood ones(which I presume will have to be sealed somehow?)...and they seem very expensive....will I be selling body organs to fund this adventure😁.I also found some boards from Daler Rowney https://www.jacksonsart.com/daler-rowney-boards-oil-primed-10x8in,along with Jacksons own universal primed linen on MDF...would these be a possibility?
I am sorry for all the questions but it has been a bit of a startle to find how little I know about oil painting supplies and how to use them.I don't remember it being this complicated when I started watercolours but maybe it was and I have just learnt over time and ordering all seems effortless now!! There is also the seemingly paradoxical aspect to beginning a new project in that I don't want to buy a load of stuff(there is a special drawer here for all the magic watercolour brushes and paints that weren't so magic at all's trying not to add to that would be preferable) and yet I know there is a learning process which sort of involves using loads of materials to begin with !! I am even thinking what is the most sensible size tube of paints to buy??
The idea of the Alkyd paints appeal to me some what and I am thinking that maybe they would be a smaller jump from watercolours to begin with as I might be able to see more quickly what a painting is turning out like rather than waiting days for panels to dry before I can see how I am doing and if I needed to start again, something I am very familiar with, then I wouldn't be facing another amount of days between each attempt? Does this make sense?
Thank you both so much again
Larry
Posted
Ampersand boards are expensive, I'm afraid; probably the best surfaces though. But Loxley canvas boards are very good, as are Winsor and Newton's - I haven't seen Daler Rowney canvas boards around lately, but they probably still make them, and they'd be fine. Even Daler board is a good surface to paint on, but you must frame them - the corners are very vulnerable to damage. You can also get hold of MDF panels, which you could prime and seal with acrylic gesso - most prepared boards are already primed; you can get MDF from craft stores and builders' merchants; or hardboard panels. You can even paint gesso onto watercolour paper, and then paint in oils on that.
Alkyds probably would be a good way to go, yes.
I did get your email and have replied - I think I also mentioned that you don't need a Kindle to read an e-book: you can download a free Kindle app from Amazon which will enable you to read it on your pc, laptop or other device. Failing that, I can always send you a download. Solvents - they won't be sent by airmail, no.... but there must be art materials suppliers in your neck of the woods (Ireland, did you say? Well there are plenty of oil painters in Ireland - ask one of them where they get their supplies - bound to be a few on the web you could contact.) Walnut oil - well, it is a thinner in a sense, as is Linseed, but not usually described as such - not in the same sense as Turpentine, Zest-it or the various low-odour thinners: the oils enrich the colour, make it more malleable, and also add to the tendency to crack if used too heavily in underpainting and are then painted over in thinner paint. The solvents - Turps, Oil of Spike, Sansodor - do thin the colour, break it down, and aren't heavy in oil so can be used, sparingly, in the under-layers. Oil extends and "fattens" the paint, solvents dissolve it, basically.
It is very easy to over-complicate these things and I might have thrown too much at you all in one go - it's not really that complex, at least at the outset: it gets more complicated, and more interesting, the more you go into it, and I've gone into it rather a long way. Stub had it right - get basic equipment, a good serviceable set of oils, like Daler Rowney Georgian colours, a prepared board such as one of those mentioned, or gesso a sheet of MDF or hardboard cut to your requirements, a handful of brushes - a couple of flats, a filbert, a couple of rounds, and a rigger, a simple bottle of Linseed oil, or Liquin, or Oil Painting Medium, and off you go. Zest-it will help clean your palette - and Swarfega is good for cleaning your brushes.
Posted
Thank you everybody.Robert I hope you got my email this time. I now have more than enough to be getting on with and will start making a list of supplies and where to get them.
There are two things I am sort of puzzled over and after this no more questions.If you follow the fat over lean rule, then when you are putting on the first layer of paint, will not need to be thinned right down in order to spread and will the oil needed to thin it out not then force you to add even more oil to make it fatter and how does that work if you are now adding in body into the painting?Or is that all rubbish?Probably the watercolour talking ! And definitely finally,how do these artists who paint plein air manage to paint complete a painting without allowing time(hours?) for drying between layers?
Thank you again
Edited
by Larry
Posted
Water miscible oils do indeed clean up with water - you could go that way ; I'm not keen on them, but that's mostly to do with pigment intensity and the limited range in some brands: the Holbein brand has quite a substantial range.
If you're using alkyds, the question of oil in the first layers is of somewhat less importance, although you do still have to be aware of fat over lean: just paint very thinly - follow Syd's blocking-in approach, using a bit of alkyd medium if you need it. I would use turpentine but I'm not sensitive to it (yet!) as some are; and I rather like the smell which to others is actively repellent.... Each to their own. (The one smell I do find catches me in the throat is that of White Spirit - I'm still using it at the moment, not that I've been able to paint in oil for a few weeks, but a) I'm looking for an alternative, b) I only ever use it to clean the palette and brushes after I've done: some use it to paint with but I find it entirely unsatisfactory for that.)
You will find very often that you don't need much oil to make the paint spread - and if that's the case, don't add it for the sake of it: some paints are oilier than others because of their physical characteristics in the milling - adding more oil to them is unnecessary; whereas with a colour like genuine Cobalt Blue, which is generally rather reluctant to so much as move on the canvas if you apply it thinly, you might need a bit of oil to get it to come alive. Although if you can avoid it, eg by mixing with Titanium White, so much the better. Generally, anything you mix with T'nium White rarely needs extra oil - the paint is extremely slick from most manufacturers; Jackson's own paint is a bit 'shorter', and I like it. But then, I use a mixture of mediums, either Linseed oil and Turpentine or Low Odour Thinners, or Stand Oil and Turps. Or a bit of Liquin now and then. Have a look on the websites - there used to be a gel medium, which I remember worked quite well... all of these things are full of chemicals (but then, what isn't?) and are toxic to a greater or lesser degree, but then you're not going to be eating them or washing with them, and elementary studio hygiene takes care of most hazards. Wear latex gloves if sensitive - many do; I don't, but I've been lucky so far not to develop reactions.
Plein air painters - I'm not one any more, because I'm too broken down by age and sex to be able to manage the carrying of materials, bad enough carrying myself - usually apply their paint in one or at most two layers, with a minimum of oil, and aim for an impression rather than trying to finish the painting on the spot. They then either take advantage of the freshness and immediacy this impressionistic method imparts - which to me is perhaps its greatest strength - or take the painting back to the studio and either refine it there, or use it as the basis for a larger painting in a more convenient setting.
Did I cover everything? If not - come back! (Oh and as Syd quite rightly says: there is room for disagreement on many of these things, and we often do disagree, usually in small ways: so read as much as you can, but read discriminatingly, bearing in mind that some old books mention recipes for mediums which either aren't available today, or turned out to be disastrous for the paint film. There are many good online resources once you really get stuck in to oil painting, but take it steadily - plunging in too far too soon can just put you off!)
Posted
Thank you Syd and Robert.Syd,can I ask you please which canvas boards from Jacksons do you use? I find their website very challenging since they changed it, even for stuff I have ordered for years and haven't a clue what I am looking at in the oil and canvas department !!! And what brand Water Mixables do you use and what is the special adapted linseed oil you mention?
Robert,why would the first layer with the Alkyds be somewhat less important? Is it because of the quicker drying process?
I'll get there yet 😀
Posted
p.s. I see the term 'blocking in' being used and I wonder how that actually works in oils? If I was painting say a sky, some background hills, trees in the middle distance and some grass to foreground, would I paint in rough sky down below level of mountain or hill top...say a blue with some white tinted in, in with the mountain roughly,continue on with grass both say cold and warm for aerial perspective and let that dry.Then come back and sort out the different sections such as maybe clouds in the sky, put whatever touches to mountains and grasses and then add trees.Or could the tree shapes be roughed in on first pass? I might be over thinking this because of watercolours where I try to get out with one pass for most parts and definitely no more than two for the odd section with maybe the third pass being for the jewelry as Zbukvic would say? I have DVDs of David Curtis painting in watercolours and he will work down the page doing the sky into the background and on in to the foreground with washes of colour of different strengths,let's it dry and then firms it all up.I don't like using all of that system as you will have some parts bleed into the other but with oils that wouldn't be a problem as you can correct it?
Posted
Morning Larry (again, got your email).
Alkyds are quick drying, because of the alkyd resin with which the oils are mixed, so there's less tension between layers, and anyway the usual practice is to paint them quite quickly with a minimum of blocking in - which is just establishing the broad shapes in very thin paint before adding the superstructure. It helps technically, but you don't even need to do it if you have confidence: but probably most of us do. All you need do is establish the tones and colours - you don't even need do that, plenty of us block in with a mix of, say, Burnt Sienna and Ultramarine, let that dry (usually) and then build up the image - not so very different from watercolour in the latter stages at least, you're basically refining things and pulling them together.
The specially modified Linseed oil is sold by Winsor and Newton alongside their Artisan watersoluble oils; and Holbein and other makers will have their own variants. A trip to an art shop if you can find one will probably be a lot easier than trawling through Jackson's now enormous website, until you know exactly what you're looking for. Any canvas board will do - I'm not keen on some of the cheaper ones, which warp, and which, coming from the far East, tend to be treated with a fungicide: this isn't really any problem with oil, but it is with acrylic. There are ways of treating this - washing the board with a damp cloth, applying your own coat of acrylic gesso; but I've lost confidence in these very cheap boards and think retailers are in denial that there's a problem. So I stick to Ampersand boards and Winsor and Newton or Loxley canvas boards (or Daler-Rowney, if I can find them). The difference in price isn't really worth havering about.
Posted
Indeed so - I like the Daler Rowney oil painting paper: and I don't see why you shouldn't sell paintings on paper: they can be mounted, stuck to rigid board, or just attached as you'd mount a watercolour; I admit that I never have sold an oil painting on paper, but then as I've never tried to .... well I wouldn't have!
I wonder, in passing, if you can still buy that very heavy, very smelly, oil painting paper that used to be sold in rolls, with a heavy brown paper backing.... all of the o/p paper I've seen in recent years has come in pads with single sheets of fairly thin paper: it was an experience, painting on the heavy stuff 50-odd years ago; I suspect it's been superseded though - anyone know?
