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greys for the dont knows
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Posted
The colours on the colour wheel opposite to each other are complementary colours. when mixed together they produce greys
the three primary colours are red ,yellow and blue. any one of those mixed with the other two produces a grey ....e.g. red mixed with yellow and blue gives a grey. If you have got a green that is the yellow and blue ready just to mix with the red . another example ...take blue ,the complementary colour of this is a mix of the other two, red and yellow ( orange in other words) So blue and orange make a grey. The orange can be cadmium orange or any colour with an orange leaning e.g. burnt sienna . The final example ..take yellow and mix it with red and blue( purple) give another grey ..All these greys can be lightened to suit and can be cool or warm greys depending on the mixes e.g. ultramarine blue plus burnt sienna ,but with more of the sienna, will give a warm greywhich when lightened with water in watercolor or white in other mediums can give a warm shadow to the underside of clouds All this is not colour theory but are facts which can save a lot of mud mixing but not everybody knows these simple facts but i hope some newbies have learned something new from my spiel....Syd
Posted
A commonly used grey is Ultramarine plus Burnt Sienna (which is an earth-orange). And there are so many others - I wouldn't use a cadmium colour to make a grey, normally; more because of the expense issue to which Mats refers than other reasons, although in watercolour a bit of Cad Red or Scarlet with Pthalo Blue can be effective to take the edge off the blue.
But while Cobalt Blue is expensive, as is Cerulean, they're both extremely valuable colours - and they form the basis of so many greys, with eg, Light Red, Indian Red, Venetian Red, Burnt Sienna, Mars Red, Mars Orange; and all of those red/orange colours are still very reasonably priced: I'd be in a lot of trouble for one if they weren't....
Good point, Syd: there is nothing more horrible visually than a grey mixed from black and white - and you can instantly spot it in a painting.
Posted
Ah! Glad you asked, he lied, convincingly.
Discount watercolour first of all, because you surely know the answer to that - you would have to use a Titanium, or worse, Chinese (Zinc) White, and all your transparency would be gone in a flash. It would sit there in your painting, a great, grey, sullen lump.
But your question makes much more sense in an oil or acrylic context. Why should black and white, used to make a grey, be so a) unappealing to the eye, b) immediately obvious?
The reason basically is the black - the whites are almost invariably essential in any oil or acrylic mixture; much as you might try to keep them to a minimum, colour without a touch of white, or glazed over a lighter colour with white in it, is thin, and untouched by light. Commercially available blacks are formulated to be as neutral as possible - true, under Lamp Black there is a hint of brown, depending on manufacturer and on how thinly it's brushed out; Ivory Black can have either a bluish or brownish underdone. Mars Black - a very good black by the way - is in my experience of it almost devoid of undertone. So that undertone - the colour you can just about see in the depths of black, or in black very thinly painted - is either not a very complex one, or hardly noticeable at all.
This matters a lot when you come to mix grey. The point about Syd's suggestion is that a) his greys can be adjusted - you can have a blue-grey; a reddish-grey; a cool or warm grey. Black doesn't offer that flexibility, and is a cold colour - indeed, if it were a true black it wouldn't be a colour at all, it would be rather the negation of colour; and b) that this gives them subtlety. If you mix a grey with black and white alone - and I would urge you to try that, because you'll then see what I'm prattling about, which is much better than mere words - you'll get a dead, chill grey that wouldn't even look right on a battleship (because of the atmospheric effect of light on a truly grey object unless you're right up next to it). You can tell if a black and white mix has been used in a painting by its crudeness, its dullness, and its oddly unnatural look - it sticks out like a sore thumb to anyone who is used to looking at colour.
In the natural world, a true, pure black is very unusual - if you can find it, you would be ill-advised to try to replicate it as if it had no relationship to surrounding objects: blacks and greys in nature always have a bias towards one colour or other; either they're made up that way, or they pick up and reflect light (ie, colour - because light and white aren't exactly the same thing) or usually both. If you mix your black to make the grey, you're using colour and it will show - you want it to show, it's what makes your grey interesting.
Last point - say you're painting a sky and you want grey clouds: if you were to mix black and white to get them - and many do - you're going to get a colour that has all the vibrancy and subtlety of a formica table top in your least favourite greasy-spoon café: it'll murder your painting. And many of us would immediately know what you'd done, and sigh, compassionately....
Edited
by RobertJones
Posted
Good explanation, thank you.
In fact I did not know about watercolour grey (Im learning watercolour, so thanks for that) and now I understand why people decry Chinese white as well. So double thank you.
It does raise one more question, which I shall whisper lest it offendeth the ear...Payne's Grey. To use or not to use? After Syd's tutorial on grey I don't think I need to order my pan / tube of paynes after all. But should I?
David
Posted
Sylvia...I shall!
Oddly, I have tried mixing grey for shadows many times (my pile of spoiled paper is fast growing) and I almost always come out with a red grey, even mauve. Is this tendency to one colour a typical beginners thing, or am I just wonky?
I have made a colour chart (several actually) as I have played with different paint types. Im currently using the White Knights pans I was given free...I really like them but cannot vouch for them because I am a beginner! I was thinking of going to W and N Artists tubes and just being done with it...learn ONE type, ONE brand, ONE range etc. but the pans are so easy to use (less slop). Maybe I should gor for the W and N Artsists (sorry, professional) tubes.
Either way, I am enjoying my painting. ALAAARRRMMM thread hijack.
Sorry
D
Posted
Two things - one, Mats - grey in this particular context need not be a shadow colour; and then again it might be, but as you know greys have a much wider application than that.
Payne's Grey - again, this is interesting: to take the two versions of this colour you're most likely to find in watercolour in Britain, the Daler Rowney and Winsor and Newton versions, the former is a very decided inky grey, the latter a much warmer, bluer colour. And an old mate of ours, Alan Owen, uses Payne's Grey in his skies sometimes - I presume it's the W & N version he uses, though it might not be. Rowland Hilder, a great watercolourist and draughtsman, used it, and Neutral Tint, as well - but then Hilder could do things with watercolour that I've never been able to even think about doing - I think of him a bit like James Joyce in literature: he could do extraordinary things, but those who try to emulate him in doing them are quite likely to plunge into disaster.
Payne's Grey (who was Payne? I don't know..... Mrs Payne's other half....?) is I think quite a useful colour in watercolour if used in skies for a particular effect; it can also be good for winter trees, fine details and areas of deep dark where black would be too obtrusive. I wouldn't kick it out of the paint-box - it doesn't present the horrible consequences you get when mixing black and white; all the same, I've managed to spoil a painting with it before now ..... I think it needs to be handled carefully, and preferably delicately. Oh, and don't use it for shadows - reverting to Mats' point, shadows have colour in them, and can even be expressed in pure colour: if you want bright, clean paintings, keep the dingier colours and tones to a minimum.
Posted
I like White Knights pans they mix well they are a bit sticky I think they have an amount of honey in them so a gentle spray to keep them a nice texture. Saying that I usually use Sennelier , but I do go back to my W K s . I also like pans as a lot of my stuff is done on the hoof and tubes would be a complete pain in the butt.
Posted
well I love Paynes Grey - I mix some superb greens with it and use it for wintry skies BUT I would never use it as a grey. My preference for mixing grey is cobalt blue and light red or burnt sienna. I'm talking W&N watercolours of course.
Just looked it up - the colour Payne's Grey was apparently named after a British watercolourist and art lecturer, William Payne (1760--1830), who recommended the mixture to students as a more subtle alternative to a grey mixed from black and white
Edited
by MichaelEdwards
Posted
For watercolour I tend to mix greys using other colours that are in the painting already, so that everything harmonises. This almost always starts with ultramarine blue (it's in every painting I do) and either burnt sienna or raw umber. I've never used Payne's grey, but my palette is quite small as I love mixing colours.