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Posted
Robert Jones - 2012-07-21 7:11 PM A slightly silly question for a Saturday evening - I know that oil painters are in something of a minority on POL, and those who use lead whites are a minority within a minority, but, just to please me..... if you use Flake (or Cremnitz, or Foundation White), I'd be really interested to know why you do. I know why I do - but such is the caution associated with lead these days (meaning that the continued availability of the paint is under some threat) that I fear fewer people will avail themselves of it, to the detriment of their work. So, if you do - why do you? What does it give you that Titanium, Zinc, or Flake White Hue, don't? In passing - I am not suggesting that painting schools/art groups should promote lead-based paint; it's for those who have weighed up the risks in an informed way. I feel I should say this before I'm accused of trying to poison the opposition. If anyone has used Michael Harding's genuine Vermilion, by the way - a really very hazardous pigment - I should also be interested to know whether it gave them a special experience, beyond death, obviously, and if they think this sort of living dangerously can be justified in our present day and age.... (PS: I've just found my tin of Flake White on my dining table - do NOT take me as a reliable guide to health and safety; it's a miracle I'm still alive....)I use flake white on the very odd occasion when I fool around with oils. There is no real reason other than my dad used it, I got his stuff when he went to the great studio in the sky. I understand that it is a drying white.I'm advocating that painting schools, etc, should promote the use of flake white and other lead based paints, so that we can put the health and safety nannies to bed, where they can dream to their heart's content about all the things that may happen in this 'something dreadful might happen', world they have created
Posted
Well, I agree with you, because I use it quite a lot - it dries beautifully, it's a warm white, and unlike Titanium (which is a fine white, be it said, and irreplaceable) it isn't swimming in oil.
Even so, people are being actively dissuaded from using it by so many tutors - so in trying to find out why its devotees (such as me!) use it, I'm hoping that others will at least consider it, even if they feel the need to dive into latex gloves before touching the stuff.
Posted
I use Titanium, simply because it's the only white oil I've bought. If I thought I had a use for flake white, I'd buy it. Then I would spread copious amounts on my morning toast, which I would guess the 'elf n safety brigade think we all do because of course, we are all stupid.
A few years back, I did a contract job (IT) for a well known supplier of health and safety training, and I can tell you, Health and Safety is about job creation, and then justifying those jobs. There is also an interesting relationship between health and safety legislation, and compensation lawyers.
Posted
Earth>>>minerals>>> metallic salts. Those are the origins of art pigments.
Metallic salts can be extracted from minerals. Lead salts & mercury salts are but two of them. Intrinsically they are harmful to both the users and the wider environment.
That waste water>>>the sewage plant>>>that river>>>the next town down the river, its drinking water etc.
Its about adding those mineral salts to food chains where we humans are at the top etc.
Titanium oxide is another mineral salt & it's safe enough to eat in great quantity by comparison
Its down to we in the modern art community to act responsibly especially in waste disposal.
Yes we can by and employ the most toxic compounds in our works of art. Just don't eat and drink at the same time as painting with them. Just remember to inform your art buying patrons as you have a duty of care to them too. They will live with your art for many years...
If you have but one mercury/tin dental amalgam filling it releases about 1 microgramme of mercury into your body each day. It accumulates in your body because you cant get rid of it quickly enough...etc...and yes it can cause mental derangement too.
It's not about health & safety it's about moral responsibility and being a professional artist too.
Posted
Today discovered that the only European manufacturer of lead chromate, from which Flake, Cremnitz and Foundation Whites are made, has ceased production; so while there may be a little old stock held by paint suppliers, there will be no more lead whites until and if an alternative supplier can be a) found, b) permitted to export to Europe and the USA.
There is a non-European source of supply - don't know where, but guess China or Korea - but actually getting licences to import it is going to be a problem. So - well, Damn' and Blast, basically. There is a Flake White Hue, a non-lead paint made by Winsor & Newton, which is an interesting paint, but NOTHING like the real thing, and of course a variety of other whites, Titanium, Zinc etc.
I know that most of you won't care a sausage about this, because most use Titanium and a fair number use water-soluble oil: but for anyone who DOES actually care, keep an eye on Michael Harding's website, and see if there's anything you can do to pressurize the authorities (eg, in DEFRA).
It's a conspiracy, I tell you........
Posted
This is indirectly linked to your questions, you may be interested in it.
Two months ago I ordered various paints from a large retailer in London. The order included cadmium yellow in artists quality acrylics. Everything arrived but the cadmium yellow. I phoned the supplier, who said the manufacturer didn't have cadmium yellow in stock.
After phoning the retailer a few times since then, I've found out why I can't get hold of the cadmium. The EU is asking manufacturers of artists' paints to reduce their production of cadmium colours. Perhaps this restriction applies to other heavy metal colours as well, although I don't have enough information on the details of the EU policy.
The outcome might be that eventually it becomes harder to find and buy tubes of artists' paints with heavy metal pigments.
Posted
I like harking back - however, I notice that Gamblin, a US paint manufacturer, has developed a Replacement Flake White, containing no lead; and that the product is available from T Lawrence.....
If lead whites do come back, they're going to be more expensive: because the one supplier of lead chromate has realized he has a monopoly....
The cadmiums - well, they would be a real loss; and in this case, obviously, not only to oil painters.
Mel. - if it weren't for a few obsessives (like Michael Harding, and, in a poor way, me) we should be left with nothing but poster paint - I have sympathy with removing the impact of heavy metals on the environment, but paint manufacturers are going to struggle to replicate these lost materials; they've done a lot, but while the colour range is greater than ever it was, and paint is now far more lightfast, it would be good to keep those positive qualities inherent in some of the older materials - and it's strange, in passing, that none of these restrictions apply in supposedly health-conscious USA.
Posted
despite having a Cadmium allergy, painting wearing vinyl gloves, cadmium based pigments, as per W&N standard Artists' acrylics still remain in amongst my all-time favourites colours...
They contain the cadmium sulphoselenide salt which gives the colour and lowers the toxicity, but not necessarily the irritant nature...This is the type of modern cadmium salt pigment that I refer to.
An example Vallejo, Cadmium Orange Light, Pigment PY20 cadmium sulphoselenide...It bears a "USA Health Label" confirming that it conforms to ASTM D-4236 and thus actually requires " No health labelling required"...thus confirming this cadmium salt's safety for the arts & craft market.
From my recent purchases of some 10 tubes of various Artists' grade cadmium paints there would appear to be no supply problems....
If your usual brand is unavailable why not try another manufacturer's?
AV or Vallejo [Spain] Artists' Acrylics are respected brand that I use...this is not a plug!
Posted
Just to prove I do listen to other people - and find this forum valuable.... I did take Mel's point about moving on, despite what I might have said at the time! And if lead-based whites aren't going to be available any more, I'm obviously going to have to, whether I like it or not.
I will still try to find them; and I will still pay for them at a higher price if that becomes necessary. Even so - if I can find a flake white substitute that really IS a substitute, that has the qualities of Flake and Cremnitz White despite the lack of lead, I'll use it: I'm not really in favour of poisoning myself or anyone else; it's simply that these paints had incredible qualities that, for all its myriad advantages, Titanium White doesn't, and Zinc White most certainly doesn't.
I would not recommend lead whites to beginners in oil; there are techniques that don't require it, and they would do better to learn these. The old techniques of building up a painting in layers, however, could be lost without the lead whites - that's what makes them valuable and, for some, indispensable.
I would be VERY grateful - might even send presents! - if anyone could recommend a white oil paint that offered a real substitute for Flake and Cremnitz White: anyone out there tried Gamblin Flake White substitute, for instance? An honest, informed opinion would really be very helpful - or even a tip to a website on which these issues are knowledgeably discussed. I do know that for a lot of people on this and other sites, this whole question is incomprehensible: white's white, isn't it? What does it matter what version you use? But it really does matter, in oil painting; far more so in some techniques than in others.
So -all right, I'll move on, however reluctantly: but someone tell me where to move on TO!
Posted
One of my all time favourite artists is Dali. I was captivated by his work when I first visited his museum in Figures. I know he was mad, eccentric , self publicising in the extreme and much sneered at by many. I can’t say that I would have liked him had I met him but his works just mesmerise me. I’m not sure why – perhaps it’s the sense of humour which I share in a lowly capacity with my interest in cartoons, perhaps it’s his sheer artistic skill with whatever medium he worked with, or perhaps it’s his totally bizarre choice of subject matter. Probably all of them and a lot more!
Anyway I thought I would post one of his works for others to comment on – it's one of his lesser known paintings and a bit different from his more popularly known works (being influenced by his meetings with Picasso) but it's one of my favourites : Figures Lying In The Sand .
Well I would post it if I knew how (must admit I’m not that interested in computerology and haven’t any great desire to find out how to do it!). So I post here a link to it and perhaps some kind person would pop it below on the forum for me – if not you can easily click on it below and take a butchers as one of our sadly missed friends would have said.
http://www.salvador-dali.org/cataleg_raonat/resized_imatge.php?obra=180&imatge=1