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Are Amateur Artists Taking The Bread Out Of The Mouths Of Professional Artists?
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Message
Posted
Approximately a year or so ago I read with interest a letter that a professional artist had written to one of the art magazines. It caused quite an uproar and some of you may remember it. If I remember correctly, she stated that amateur artists should not be allowed to sell their work cheaply because it was "taking the bread out of the professional artists' mouths". What is your opinion on this. Hopefully perhaps both amateur and professional artists will express their points of view. Personally I am an amateur and I don't paint to sell. Having said that, if someone offered to buy one of my paintings, provided the price was reasonable, I would have no hesitation in selling.
Posted
The first problem in responding to this is to determine at what point an amateur becomes a professional. I regard myself as very much an amateur who happens to sell work through a number of outlets. When I paint I usually have sales potential in my mind and I suppose this does influence what I do.
I make enough money from sales to pay for my hobby including trips to galleries, museums club fees etc. However, if I relied on it for my livelihood I would die of starvation or hypothermia or both. And yet at one the exhibitions where I used to display my work I had to fill in a form asking, inter alia: if I sold my work, if I exhibited in galleries and if I regularly accepted commissions. Having answered yes to all these I was placed in the 'professional category' in the catalogue.
Posted
It may have been underpricing work rather than the amateur element that figured most prominently.
I don't think it makes much difference to anything usually - it does if you're in an exhibition with others trying to sell your work at a reasonable price when someone else showing with you offers their work at less than it would have cost to frame it. They may not intend to be inconsiderate and selfish, but I'm afraid that's what they are.
I look at Facebook quite often - there is an artist there who sells very bad paintings at a very low cost: well, does this affect me? No. Because I don't think I would sell my paintings to those same people, because they may not be able to afford my prices - reasonable, modest, self-sacrificing though they be! - and because people like paintings for all sorts of reasons: I think they're pretty bad - but if they appeal to someone else, enough to persuade them to buy, I don't think the bread is being whipped from my slavering jaws.
If you're being seriously undercut in an exhibition, withdraw your work and show it elsewhere. But you're really not being undercut if in a gallery far away someone is selling paintings for a third or less the price of yours. It won't be the same market.
As for amateur and professional - it's been said before: very few of us make a living from painting alone. Most have to teach (or make dvds, or flog our own range of "unique" brushes (are they fairycakes unique....). If you enter competitions or shows and tell the organizers that you sell your work at all regularly, you'll be classed as a professional, whether you think you are or not. In my opinion, for what it's worth, it neither matters, nor does it mean anything.
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Posted
Amateur or professional prices differ in each category. Yet I am with Robert when he says - quote - I don't think it makes much difference to anything usually - it does if you're in an exhibition with others trying to sell your work at a reasonable price when someone else showing with you offers their work at less than it would have cost to frame it. - unquote - There is a former school teacher exhibiting locally whose work looks quite professional but who sells at ridiculously low prices. She must be on a good pension. In a joint exhibition it would devalue the work of other artists.
Posted
I still haven't figured out at what point I am 'an artist' rather than a 'learner'!
Joking aside, this discussion appears a lot regarding glass beads, which I make and sell on a part-time basis, whilst other people do it for a living and need it to pay the bills. There are some people who are very resentful ( we have been described as 'annoying hobbyists' by an otherwise very well respected beadmaker), but usually everyone realises that there are customers who like different styles and have different budgets, and so we generally jog along together. The only problems really appear when someone seriously underprices their work, as this affects everyone's prices, or at the least the way they are percieved. As Pat said, when competing with other people this is a major issue, especially as most beads are sold online rather than face to face, so the comparisons are pretty instant.
Edited
by tinasmith
Posted
I just wonder if we should look down on 'under pricing'. Who is to say that something is under priced even if others do charge more - if that is what the artist wants and is happy with the return then that's the price.
Of course there is always the argument that a potential buyer (I hate the word punter) on seeing a low price will be put off saying 'well it can't be that good if that's all it costs' .
Edited
by MichaelEdwards
Posted
Tina - you're an artist and don't let anyone say any different. All of us who pick up a brush and pen are artists regardless of our stage of development. The truth is we never stop learning right up until we are measured for the long box - can't answer beyond that - just have to wait and see.
Posted
I think Robert is right when he says that it may have been the underpricing part that was the issue. I wonder if sometimes that is intentional. For example, I started out with the intention of doing animal commissions, however, I had no idea what to charge. Because I was an amateur would I be so bold as to ask the same price as a professional would? I didn't feel I was worth that. But then if I charged too little, would people consider that I didn't rate myself highly and was therefore no good? Also some artists are so pleased that someone admires their work enough to want to buy it that they are willing to sell it for anything. There is a local art exhibition that takes place here yearly in the Town Hall and each year more and more people take part. Also locally is a shop that sells pottery and paintings and a few other crafts. Prices for paintings are between £125 and £350. I was at one of these exhibitions and the owner of the shop was going around. She was attracted by one of the paintings and, as the artist was not present, asked one of the organisers to phone him up to see if he would accept her offer to buy it. Shamelessly I listened to this conversation whilst looking at some nearby paintings. She offered him £5 and I could hear his voice accepting and very pleased too by the sound of it. I was incensed. I never did find out how much she charged for it!
Posted
I would like to know how do 'we' arrive at a fair price for our 'works of art?' Is there a definitive process that we can all adhere to? Materials and time spent as well as the 'unique quality' of the piece have to be considered but how do we decide on it's value. It's a dilemma I have never satisfactorily resolved. As Michael points out, "a potential buyer on seeing a low price will be put off saying 'well it can't be that good if that's all it costs." whilst if too high, others will cry out, 'How ****** much!?' in stunned disbelief!
Posted
Once you sell your art then you ARE professional - so the question disappears. Being paid for something is the main difference between amateur and professional.
What they really mean is "Do part-time professionals take bread from full time?" - which is also a pointless question.
Does the Co-op take bread from ASDA's mouth?
Do buses take bread from taxis?
Does my local mechanic take bread from the large Ford (or Citroen) dealership (that also has its own mechanics workshop)?
It's misleading and disingenuous - becasue that's just LIFE. Of course they do - but they have every right to!
We live, we do things, we die... Everything we do can be deemed to have an effect on someone else...
If I turn right then I might be holding up someone else who wants to turn left (but can't becasue I have to wait for both sides of the road to clear, all he has to wait for is the one side).
If I trip and cut my arm, visit the doc for some anti-bios... I might be stopping someone with a chest infection getting in sooner, so his infection gets worse becasue of me..
ALL of which is rubbish. Unless you do something deliberately, and with malice, then you are just living a life, nothing more.
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"amateur artists should not be allowed to sell their work cheaply "
The other thing that I am TOTALLY against, and will stand up to even if it meant going to gaol:
The concept that someone can dictate what others sell their art for. You produce it - if you want to ask £30 for it or even give it away... it's only your business.
Posted
HMRC will treat you as a professional if you make ANY money from selling your art. They will also allow you to deduct the cost of materials from your sales revenue and tax you on the profit. I like that definition of a professional.
We had three local "professional" artists exhibit round here in the local Guildhall the other year. One wanted £150 and more for a smear of paint on a 6x6 kitchen tile with an Artwaffle title and a number. I reckon I stand more chance of flogging "Pump next t' Privvy" for £50 than she does flogging her tiles, and (needless to say) none of her stuff was selling. That doesn't mean I'm underpricing, or stealing the food from her children's plates; it means I'm selling into a market that she simply has no intention of trying to reach.
Now, if I wanted simply to sit back and moan and whinge and complain about how amateurs shouldn't be allowed to sell blah blah blah rather than actually achieve anything from my art, then I'd stick a smear of paint on a tile and ask more than it was worth too. Until then, I'll stick to stuff that's aimed at people who want to buy; it may not sell, but at least I'm giving it a shot.
Edited
by alang23
Posted
Quickly (well, I hope I'll be quick) amateur/professional doesn't matter a rap, other than to the tax man. The public doesn't care. Underpricing work doesn't matter to anyone else provided you're not showing with them - then it does.
But I've said before: an artist on the Affordable British Art site was offering her work for very silly money: I suggested she up her prices considerably - she did, and the work, which had been sitting there doing nothing, sold. There's no magic formula for calculating price: look at what others are charging for work of similar size and, so far as you can judge it, quality. My offering is, if you're charging less than £50 for anything, you're doing yourself down.
(Someone said to me but if I charged as much as that, I'd never sell; I asked Are you covering your costs? Answer - No. Well there you are then: your work's a vanity project - I can understand that you want your paintings to be seen and enjoyed, but you may have reached my stage - fed up with the marketing, and not being dependent on the income, I now tend to give them away to people I like AND who I know will appreciate them. That doesn't apply to you, mind - Oi wants yer money!)
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