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Problems with Liquitex Superheavy Gesso
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Message
Posted
In one of my experimental frames of mind at present....I bought myself a pot of Liquitex Superheavy gesso, with a view to creating some textured grounds. I started on a canvas-board which already had a single layer of acrylic-gesso primer, and applied some of the Superheavy with a palette knife....not especially thick, maybe a few millimetres. I left it to dry for the recommended minimum of 24 hours---in fact, it was more like 48 hours---and returned to it to paint on. The first layer of acrylic paint went on ok (using a mix of water and polymer medium as a diluent, but still fairly thick)....and I left it to dry, but the process of putting the paint on was like painting on blotting paper. The surface sucked the paint from the brush like a vacuum cleaner and it was near impossible to spread paint.
The following day I discovered that it was possible to wipe off the entire layer of paint with a cloth! You're not supposed to be able to do that with dried acrylic. It's as if the acrylic paint had not bonded to the gesso surface. So I tried again with paint straight from the tube....and again, it came off.
So....I'm puzzled as to what I'm doing wrong. The stuff isn't exactly cheap. The Liquitex web-site contact form is only for USA residents so if I can't find out much here, I'll have to use snail-mail to the UK address. Ironically Liquitex's bog-standard gesso doesn't have this problem....wish I'd bought that instead!
Posted
Baffling - you diluted the paint you applied with water and a polymer medium: was this Liquitex medium? I've never used Liquitex so have no experience of this, but at a guess it might have been an idea not to dilute the first paint layer at all - wait for that to dry, and then go back in with medium as required. But - if that was the case, the notes on the container should say so.
It sounds, however, as though there's a problem with the 'gesso' itself: it should dry hard, and not be paint-thirsty. As for contacting the company, which you should certainly do, I would go straight to the US site, not to the British outpost which may only be the distributor. Email addresses should work, whatever country you happen to be in.
Posted
Plot thickens - there is an old-ish thread on Wet Canvas, which refers to problems with Liquitex gesso under oil paint. Your issue is with the gesso under acrylic paint, of course, but there are various comments, in an extremely long and not very informative thread, about the gesso being too absorbent for some people's tastes.
I've looked at the Liquitex website, and will have another look later - it's not the best I've ever encountered, and I lost patience with it. But I see what you mean about customer contact being restricted to N America: I've never come across anything like THAT before. They do however give contact 'phone numbers for the various foreign distributors, and in your place I should call them - if there's a known issue, they may be able to help; and if there isn't one known to them, they can of course contact the parent company.
It's worth adding that on the Wet Canvas thread, there are people who say they've never had any trouble with Liquitex gesso; which is all very well, but someone obviously did. Personally, I stick to Daler-Rowney gesso - and there are various additives you can buy to thicken it.
Posted
OK, one last stab. When I prime a board for acrylic or oil, I apply several coats and work up any required surface gradually. I wait for 72 hours to allow the primer* to cure, between coats, and before painting on top of the final coat.
The fact that the priming was absorbent to the extent you describe suggests it had not cured - either because it was too thick and you didn't allow enough time (a minimum of really does mean a minimum - err always on the side of more generous time-scales), or because the product had deteriorated in storage. Understandably, you will not be too keen on using this again and possibly ruining another board, but it's the only way to be sure the gesso itself is at fault.
*Primer - and here's the thing about acrylic 'gesso': it isn't gesso at all, it's an acrylic paint with additives in this case to provide the thickness and bulk; and I have no idea what those additives are in Liquitex gesso, but they should of course be inert (and I doubt they're the problem). My best guess is that this is a drying/curing issue - far be it from me to suggest to you how you should paint, but I'd prefer to use a heavy-bodied acrylic paint, like Cryla or Golden, plus perhaps some texture paste, rather than a heavy-duty priming. Even so, I'd give Liquitex a ring.
Posted
Thanks for those replies. Sylvia, the gesso was purchased via Jackson's so I can't just take it back.
Robert, thanks for the input. I normally use either Winsor & Newton or Golden paints....funnily enough I don't have any Liquitex colours, but there shouldn't really be an issue over using another decent paint brand on Liquitex's gesso. And yes, thanks, I had discovered the difference between gesso and acrylic-gesso. Worth knowing. The layer of gesso I painted to start with was not very thick, just a couple of millimetres...not inches...I'd have expected it to be fine, at that thickness.
If it's a curing issue, then it would relate to temperature....my painting room is, or should be, warm enough to cope...but might be worth me asking what the minimum temperature is for the curing process. I shall set up another panel tomorrow, but think I'll have to contact Liquitext by post....I'm rushed out of my head this week with various family issues (no peace for the wicked).
Posted
I don't use primers at all. I have never seen the point. If you want texture, you can buy canvases with different textures. I use both Liquitex and Golden Acrylic paints and I love them. I would, however, say to anyone who uses acrylic paints, is not use above 30% water if you are painting onto a primed canvas. Diluting acrylic paints with too much water will cause the paint to crack and peel of later down the line. I dilute my paints with Liquitex Air Brush Medium and the results are better too.
Posted
From what little I know about acrylics, you can use acrylic paint directly on raw canvas because it doesn't rot it out like oil paints do. There are also "universal" primers that will do for canvases to be painted with either acrylic or oils; and then there's oil primer, which is for overpainting with oils only.
Going back a bit to my own issue, I was playing around with trying to give my canvas a bit of texture via the acrylic-gesso before starting the painting. Not too much, just a "rough-up", if you like. Useful when attempting abstract stuff. My second test panel this morning (superheavy gesso on it from yesterday) has done the same thing....the so-called dry acrylic paint wipes off, and that paint was put on undiluted. I also overpainted, with neat acrylic, another panel that had already had superheavy applied to it a day or so ago, along with a coat of neat acrylic on. It sucked up the new layer like a sponge and dried even before I'd reached the other side of the test-board.
I've already sent a memo to Jackson's so I'll see what they say (and of course it could still be the operator at fault, not the product).
I'm back to using my Golden gel at the moment, for playtime, although most of that playtime has been ruined by this silly gesso. I'll come back if I hear anything from Jackson's.
Posted
Do come back on this, oilydust - it really does seem that there's something very amiss with this batch of the product, if not with the product itself.
As to 'why primer?' - if you apply acrylic paint to raw, entirely unprepared canvas, it will suck the water out of it (or the medium) and leave you with a very matte surface (which might of course be what you want - but it will make the paint somewhat more vulnerable to flaking off the support). So many people will basically just seal the canvas, eg with acrylic medium, or not seal it at all - particularly those who apply paint with unconventional means, including paint rollers. Watercolour and acrylic paper doesn't need priming or much benefit from it - though some will apply a gesso in order to achieve a particular effect. And most painting surfaces are probably sized and primed already, so there's no particular reason to add more priming other than to increase the strength of the white, for those who like the stained-glass sort of look, or to achieve additional texture. There's no good reason to add it as a matter of course - just for particular applications.
Acceptable water ratio to paint varies somewhat according to the brand - but I wouldn't quarrel with the 30% proportion: the paint-makers' websites should normally contain information about how their paint bears up with a range of media.
Posted
My pot of gesso is on its way back to Jacksons, after a discussion with them. Apparently Liquitex is puzzled by my results, so the pot is heading for the Returns department. Before I packed it up, I did actually try another small test and still got similar results. The betting is that they find nowt wrong with it and it's the artist at fault.....but never mind. Bit of a shame really because if it does do what it says on the tin (pot) then it's an interesting substance....to be used for creating high-relief/sculpted forms. But then, it would take an awful lot longer than 24 hours to dry.
I'm not a dimwit when it comes to following instructions (did it for a diagnostics job); but sometimes labels on pots don't tell you precisely everything that you need to know. I'm a technophile, so the more information the better. Anyway, no harm done....onward and upward, as they say.
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