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Payne's grey again
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Message
Posted
David, try adding just a touch of Indigo and see the difference, that's how I use it and for the very reason that you mention. You can also mix your own PG from a varying mixture of lamp black and phthalo blue and alizarin crimson. You can also make indigo from these three colours. Robert will no doubt add to this suggestion but give these ideas a go.
Edited
by alanbickley
Posted
I find the same thing with Paynes grey. I try to avoid it, because once I use it I start to rely on it throughout the painting and it flattens everything. I mix my own greys instead, using colours that are already in the painting. Usually ultramarine and burnt sienna or raw umber.
Kay M
Edited
by Triduana
Posted
In watercolour, there's a variety of Payne's Greys - the one with more blue in it by Winsor and Newton, the darker, sootier version by Daler-Rowney being well-known variants. I'm not personally too keen on either of them, though there are occasions when they come into their own (Alan Owen uses the W & N one, I think, and as always he knows just what he's doing with it: it was Alan who persuaded me that Burnt and Raw Umber were useful in w/colour: the secret is not to use them too intensely unless you want really strong darks, and the same perhaps applies to Payne's Grey). If I want a strong dark, though, I invariably mix it - eg with crimson and viridian.
I wouldn't use Payne's to darken colour - I know many do, but in my opinion it can land you with the very problem David explains: a certain demonstrator who tells us you can 'darken any colour by adding Payne's Grey' has a lot to answer for.
I have a little Payne's Grey in acrylic - for whatever reason, it does behave differently: less staining, 'cleaner': and doesn't leach into other colours. Perhaps though I'm just better at dealing with it in acrylic than in w/colour - in that I've painted with the former far longer than the latter?
Indigo is interesting! The real pigment is very rarely available now, because as anyone who wears denim knows, it fades. Usually these days, it's a mixture of Pthalo Blue, Black, and perhaps a little red - if you want a really threatening sky, as in approaching thunder storm, it's very useful. I've never used it to darken other colours but will give it a go. In the latter formulation, it's lightfast.
Posted
I use it W&N PG a lot in my watercolours and don't really regard it as a grey at all. It is more what I would describe as a slatey blue and is indispensable for winter skies and green mixes - mixes so well with raw sienna for example for those deep rich greens in many conifers especially cypress. As for blacks (or near black) I use ult blue and burnt sienna.
Posted
I use it all the time I regard it as blue in the winsor and newton ,,, and for my sky's and water , I could not be with out it, ,it was used by James Fletcher Watson ,so its good enough for me.. I use indigo,but it is a very strong colour . which will take over when mixing greens ,,,being a painter who has never stuck by convention ,,,I use two burnt umbers side by side in my palette ,the winsor and newton that has a red tinge ,,, but find it dries very hard and crumbles ,, and the daler rowney that is a true umber, other makers use the true one, I used to mix oil paints in the fifties , with the powdered umber and paste umbers , for wood staining and the carpentry trade,, now why does this idiot choose Daler Rowney well it stays softer long ,and also I am and follower of the artist Edward Brian Seago .. I say he used the true umber , talking of BLACK I am using VEGETABLE black pans , that my friend has made from his powders ,he has in his shed from his french polishing firm ta ta for now I,ll be back Alan O
Edited
by alanowen
Posted
Yup - I knew Alan uses it of course, because I'm a devotee of his YouTube channel (he's now on Patreon too - go and give him a bit of financial encouragement, as I shall do when I can), and I knew that Rowland Hilder used it, and Lamp Black, and Neutral Tint. I don't think anyone should be frightened of it, it does a particular job - we'd all do well to study Hilder's watercolours, which are so different from, say, James Fletcher-Watson's; and I know that Alan uses black Indian ink now and then, too. All of this depends on your approach to painting, there is no right or wrong.
Posted
There certainly is no right or wrong, Robert. I very often use Neutral Tint in my watercolour pen and washes. Especially in monochrome paintings it gives a very nice and warm grey palette. I also mix it with Raw Sienna to paint sails on some fishing boats, mix it with Cobalt Blue for shadows or clouds.
http://www.painters-online.co.uk/gallery/art-view,picture_192560.htm
http://www.painters-online.co.uk/artist/MiaKetels
Edited
by MiaKetels