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Varnishes for Oil and Acrylic
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Message
Posted
I've found very little on this around the net. Many of us are using acrylic underpainting for oils. Now some of the canvas remains acrylic and some oil. It gives an amazing 'spontaneity'. My question is this, Which varnish to use? I'm guessing oil, as you can put oil paint over acrylic paint...of course. What do people think?
Posted
Winsor & Newton Artist varnish available in matt, satin and gloss should be fine. Although primarily a varnish intended for use over oils it is compatible with acrylics. Like all good artist varnishes it can also be removed, with the recommended solvent, without damaging the painting when the time comes to re varnish in the future.
Posted
Painting oil over acrylic is best avoided if a) you're using flexible supports such as canvas, b) the acrylic is used thickly. Shouldn't be much of a problem on rigid supports, although I prefer not to. Any problems might lie quite far into the future - many disregard them; it's a matter of choice ultimately.
I use a ketone varnish over oil (when 8 months to a year have elapsed) , an acrylic varnish over acrylic, but there are 'universal' varnishes - the Golden Paint Co makes several good ones.
Posted
It probably is - and perhaps straining for certainties in a subject about which we can't be certain is a foolish enterprise. If you're going to be concerned about the long term though it's as well to be aware of possible problems: for instance, while you say who would paint in oils over impasto acrylic - I know of those who do. On a rigid support, does this matter? Dunno, to be honest. On canvas, though, which flexes according to ambient temperature and humidity, the presence of a thin layer of oil - or worse still, a thick one - over a heavy-bodied acrylic means two entirely different drying systems which are likely to part company at some point.
Acrylic "gesso" is considered quite safe under oil, though - as you say - and probably better than rabbit-skin glue and an oil priming, especially now you can't get lead primers. You're right, basically - paintings have lasted for hundreds of years despite every faulty technique and dubious material comprising them - it's the ones that haven't lasted that's the worry, if you're inclined to worry: which, I fear, I am..... But it comes in waves, and then subsides!
Posted
You can get Titanium White without Zinc in it - what worries me is the amount of zinc in so many other colours, and you won't know until you check the label (PW4 is the give-away). Lead white - well - if you can still get your hands on it, tip me the wink: it's getting more and more difficult. My present supply should last me until they carry me out feet first, but that rather depends on how much oil painting I do.
There's a lot of this information online for those who wish to look, some take the view that any zinc is a bad idea - and there's a great deal of evidence for that so far as lower layers are concerned especially - others argue that it's the quantity that matters (see Michael Harding's current web-page - though it's not updated as often as it might be as he goes on his travels round the world). Personally, I try hard to avoid it - but I'm not here to preach - I haven't got the scientific background for certainty.
One thing I completely agree with though is in Haas/Tony's comment above about acrylic 'gesso' - it's not the same thing as regular acrylic paint, and it doesn't follow that because it's safe to paint on in oil, the same applies to acrylic generally. I know people do, and that's their decision - but I'd still recommend that IF they do, they at least use a rigid support.
Posted
I stand corrected on titanium white without zinc. A little scouring the web found Williamsburg do one, although by far the vast majority of titanium whites do have zinc added to overcome the oil surfacing problem.
As to lead whites Granthams carry (and are in stock) Cremnitz white in both linseed and walnut oils in 250ml size.
Cheers
Tony
Posted
Lots of interesting opinions here. I don't really worry what will happen in 100yrs to be honest. I'm not sure I would agree that the Plaster of Paris in guesso will achieve any grip to oil paint, it's main purpose it to white out the canvas. Acrylic will 'varnish' the 'chalk' so I doubt much will rest on the surface. Acrylic on primed canvas is recommended and stated on all the pre stretched canvases I have ever bought. Suitable for oil or acrylic is usual. A varnish to the finished painting is a sort of 'shrink wrap' keeping out the air and giving some UV protection so it's fine by me. It might be a point of interest that two of the greatest painters of all time, Leonardo da Vinci and William Turner were renowned for their disregard of stability. To paraphrase the critic Ruskin: 'The problem with a Turner painting is that it doesn't look the same a month after it is painted.' I use Zinc white most of the time Titanium White is just too brutal for skin tones...for me anyway. Restorers have to make a living too? If your work is good enough...it will last. Everything said here is valid but there is a big danger that technical considerations stiful creative endeavour. Canvas is more and more dry mounted for stability and wood panels are better. Most of the oldest paintings that have survived are on wood panels not canvas. Canvas isn't actually a very good support...technically speaking.
Posted
Ar, the old 'gesso definition' problem raises its head I think - the chalk and other elements in acrylic primers, which I much prefer to the use of the word 'gesso', are what makes the difference between the primer/sealant and regular acrylic paint. Real gesso is a different substance altogether, and a subject all of its own. I wouldn't have thought that acrylic gesso contains plaster of Paris, but the manufacturers might be a useful port of call if you want to know exactly what is in a particular primer - that's if they'll tell you, of course.
But moving on from that, I can only agree about Titanium white being cold - especially for skin tones, but it can do with a touch of warming in many applications. Now lead white is (virtually) impossible to get hold of - some do still supply it, but for how much longer is the worry: I'm acquiring as much as I can as I can afford to - you're reduced to various substitutes, the vast majority of which contain Zinc. Maybe take a look at the Gamblin Flake White Replacement - I've been told it's Zinc free, but haven't yet checked that for myself. Certainly the W & N Flake White Hue contains Zinc, and doesn't behave anything like Flake White either. It was the lead whites which gave the warmth to flesh tones in old master paintings, and I'm not sure there's a substitute.
Zinc - well ... yes, I take all the points you make; and who knows whether the human race will still be here in 100 years' time anyway, if it comes to that. I think you'll make your decision on the basis of what works for you artistically, and Ruskin probably much preferred the stability (in one lifetime anyway) of oil paintings built up in layers of glazes with a variety of mediums to thin them, rather than Turner's use of thick paint and turbulent brush-strokes. You wonder how he thought Rembrandt's paintings might have changed over time - all oil paintings change as they cure: for better or for worse. That change has been described as the beneficent touch of nature, in a text I remember reading donkey's years ago.....
There's a difference between mellowing change, and falling off the canvas, of course. But if you use Zinc in the upper layers, on a rigid support, you're taking all the precautions you reasonably can short of not using the paint at all.
Posted
True, ironic that Ruskin was probably Turner's number one fan. In 100yrs...yes it is better to do what you can and be what you are right now. We all live in the trust of manufactures and the prevailing science. If I was commissioned to do a work to last for centuries I would take advice and serious care of what I did. Going with the general opinion is what I do, I'm not a research chemist or even know the algorithm for canvas cracking. I rarely stretch my own canvases these days (unless they are huge) I know the likes of Winsor & Newton/Daler etc know far more than I do and there primer is going to be better than mine. Others may prefer to make their own. I worked with collections and with restorers at a Royal Society for 10yrs. Their collection of 100's of oil paintings stretching back 200yrs and more, taught me a lot, especially how fragile, unstable and damaged some paintings are. And not by the artist's hand usually.
Posted
So easy to damage stretched canvas - probably the most durable paintings are those that have been hanging on a wall in some country house for 200 years, undisturbed .... not so many country houses left now, though! I'd rather like one - just in passing.... if anyone's feeling extra-generous?
I don't stretch my own canvas either - haven't the space, or the physical dexterity. Interesting that you mention Winsor & Newton and Daler-Rowney, because they can get overlooked in the search for ever-more exotic art products - but I've used D-R paints, particularly, for many years now, artists' quality oils and acrylics, and they've not let me down yet. My zinc-free Titanium white is made by Jackson's, or for Jackson's, by the way - if anyone wants to seek it out: I find it a very good paint.
Posted
Those two have never let me down either. My mother bought me a boxed Winsor&Newton(or Daler Rowney?) oil set when I was 8yrs old. Paints, palete, oil paper, brushes, turps and linseed oil. It even had a mixing chart. Quality paint for a beginner? All I can say is if it had been given some cheap set from the £1 shop I probably wouldn't be an artist today. This is a soap-box of mine, 'don't give children bad materials'. they need all the encouragement and success they can get. Reeves art materials, by the way, heavily undervalued. If you look at the company's history most will be amazed. No they may not be the quality of the other two now but they aren't bad paints. I used to use an Italian Acrylic but the name escapes me. They were wonderful...but too expensive for big work.
Edited
by Paul2018
Posted
Haven't used an aerosol, no - I would be worried about sputtering drops and containing the spray to avoid varnishing that which does not wish to be varnished - but if you've got the space and a respirator, no problem probably. For my relatively small paintings - generally I paint no larger than 18" by 24" - brushing on varnish isn't a problem. Someone somewhere, and I forget where, said that it was a good idea to add a gloss varnish, and then a matte - but not the other way around..... I normally use a gloss or satin type of varnish, though; not keen on true matte.
I wonder if anyone still uses dammar varnish - 'cause I've got some; it's not recommended as the best you can use, but I used to use it a lot and haven't noticed any undue yellowing yet.
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